GOP convention cost/benefit

Tampa is vying to land the 2008 GOP convention and its bid is on the list of finalists. A convention like that would have an economic impact throughout the region, including St. Petersburg, Clearwater, elsewhere in Pinellas and probably Pasco and maybe other counties and cities. What is something like this worth to the community? If it benefits us all, should we all pay? How much? How much will we get back? How many of us would rather not have such an event here?

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Tampa Loses RNC Bid

Tampa is not ready to host large events such as the RNC or even the Super Bowl.

Events as such require a transportation infrastructure that can efficiently the visitors to the city. Public transportation is not up to par and there is not sufficient nonpublic forms of transportation available to handle such events. Nonpublic forms of transportation includes privately owned and operated limousine and shuttle bus services.

In most major cities supplementation of nonpublic transportation by importing services from other cities or even states is common for large special events. In Tampa, doing such would be a violation of a special act of the Florida Legislature.

This Special Act that created the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission (HCPTC) mandates under penalty of law that all vehicles-for-hire providing transportation within Hillsborough County shall adhere to the provisions of this law. This is to include that the motor carriers obtain a certificate of public convenience and necessity to provide for-hire transportation within the county. Officials of the HCPTC have enforced this provision even on motor carriers entering Hillsborough for the sole purpose of loading passengers bound for other points within the state (intercounty). The enforcement includes the physical arrest and vehicle seizure of intercounty motor carriers who have not obtained HCPTC licensing and is the subject of a lawsuit in the federal courts.

As such, importing transportation services from other locales to supplement the local transportation companys would be subject to challenges in the courts under the Special Act and 14th Amendment issues. The HCPTC can’t be tossing folks into jail one day under color of law and opening the flodgates the next just because there is a special event such as a RNC or Super Bowl.

The question remains, if notifications of a planned lawsuit sent to the RNC and Republican Commitees of competing cities helped influence their decision to bypass Tampa? And what will the reaction from the NFL be upon receiving notification of a similar planned suit for the Super Bowl?

Walter Kozak, spring hill

Republican National Convention

Just a note from the far north in the land of Lake Wobegon to bust the myth that Minnesota freezes over in September. The photo comparing Tampa and Minneapolis in today’s issue made me chuckle. Even though its almost October, the sun is shining and its 62 degrees, a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Golf was wonderful yesterday. I welcome all of you from Tampa to come to Minnesota in September, the month of the upcoming convention, and see for yourself the wonderful land of Garrison Keillor and Lake Wobegon!!

Joe Polski
Eagan, Minnesota

Republicans Coming? Give Lex Salisbury His Rifle Back!

As a Republican for Environmental Protection, I see this bunch that has hi-jacked the Republican Party as alien intruders. If Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice, or Rumsfeld show up, stick them in a cage at the zoo and give Salisbury his rifle back, then leave their cage unlocked! PLEASE call me and let me witness it, it would make my decade.

Otherwise, I would advise not to spend one penny on this bunch of wackos. They have already raped us enough over the last 5 years. Do we really need them reaming us from behind as well? They have sentenced our children to death in a stupid, needless "war." They have sold off our national forests to the timber industry, given away our animal refuges to the oil industry and let their oil friends stick it to us at the gas pump. Does Tampa really like being repeatedly raped and sodomized to the point of near-death?

glitz or concern

This story about a Tampa Bay tour to woo the GOP convention talks about how the courting was prominent though the capacity may be lacking.

GOP convention

The balloons and the chocolate fountain did these Republican National Representatives in as they visited Tampa and none of the other cities so far vying for the GOP convention made them feel "so special". Cleveland is the fourth city left and better come up with something more like maybe personalized balloons or a pure vanilla fountain!
Of course the prediction of only a 2 percent chance of a hurricane hitting the Bay area two years from now in the height of the season and the fact that Tampa is in question of providing adequate hotel accomodations for this influx of thousands of additional people denying accomodations to regular travelers and business people or paying two to three times their normal rate and not addressing an already major traffic concern is not relative.
But the balloons and the chocolate fountain.....Let the festivities begin!!!! Reminds me of the original Batman movie and indeed Gotham City.

GOP convention

I see that the GOP convention has become newsworthy again now that a team of convention planners have arrived.
Tampa has hosted a Super Bowl and a NCAA Final Four generating millions of dollars into the Bay area economy. Just who did benefit by this monetary windfall from Tampa hosting these prestigious events?
If Tampa is chosen by this committee of Republican convention planners, it will not be based on the reality of Tampa not having adequate accomodations to house thousands of Republican supporters, or be able to adjust to an even greater transportation concern or that this convention will take place in the height of hurricane season possibly placing many more thousands of people in harms way. This committee will choose Tampa based on the Bush brotherhood. In a way, I hope they do select Tampa for this Republican convention as this would be fitting and will be the final "hurrah" for the Bush brothers and that Republicans and their supporters will finally spend some money that won't profit them.

suspending this thread

This GOP convention issue has fallen out of the news for a time, and this thread has veered dramatically off topic. So, until the issue arises again, we are suspending this thread. It will be available to read, but not for additional comments.

Half million not coming?

According to this story in the Times, were the GOP to convene in Tampa in '08, the city should not expect a half million protesters. Is that cause for concern or celebration? Does it help the bid for the convention? What if it does but proves incorrect? What if circumstances change between now and then in a way that would encourage more protesters? Would the city be prepared?

GOP convention

There was a letter published in the Times today (7/11) referring to the GOP convention. The letter writer blasted the Times for negative articles concerning the expense to the community and potential problems. The letter writer also stated that if the community loses the bid for the Republican convention, the Times can accept partial blame.
The Times did report on the convention and gave the cost expected from taxpayers, the amount of possible revenue taken in by the convention as well as the possibility of up to 500,000 protesters and 20,000 supporters. To me this is news!
Of course hoteliers, restauranteurs and other tourism-related businesses stand to make a hefty profit should Tampa be selected. How will this affect the average taxpaying working "Joe"? The letter writer states that with the convention occuring in September, it comes at a time of the year when the tourist economy needs a shot in the arm - which it would get in large portion with thousands of visitors. The letter writer did not state that September is also the height of hurricane season.
If Tampa is not selected for the GOP convention it won't be the fault of the Times for reporting news. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to weigh the real pros and cons having the convention here which is why should taxpayers fork over one dime to help pay for this convention which will benefit relatively few in comparison with all residents of Florida? Is it worth the risk of having thousands of additional people here at the height of hurricane season?
Also, the letter writer indicates that the Times would have had different viewpoints if it were a Democratic convention? This is something that people will have to decide for themselves but I will say one thing! As a Florida resident, taxpayer and registered Democrat, my views would remain the same.
This GOP convention will not benefit me one iota and I feel my tax dollars can be better spent elsewhere. I feel tax revenue should not even be considered to help pay for any political convention. And last but not least, the timing of the GOP convention is piss-poor!

My responses would be the same...too..Jack

Well...not mentioning that Sept is the height of hurricane season is just pure bias and not responsible writing.

When I write something...I try to cover my basis. If you don't...it only brings on questions...and viable ones at that. I am surprised that the times' choosers of writers...don't have some sort of thing in place with judgment of those type of letters. If they don't...because they say "censorship" then by all means post the other arguments pointing out the flaws in the other letters...

Otherwise...it appears unfair and unbalanced...like Faux news.

GOP Convention People!

Two articles appeared in the Times today, 7/12/06:
1. Bush hails a lower estimate of deficit, Times 2, page 6A
2. Budget blues ahead, Editorial page 10A
Both articles refer to the federal budget deficit. I will not suggest or offer opinion on whether Bush is right or wrong in this issue as I am only seeking views for the support or non-support of the GOP convention coming to Tampa. I do advise residents to read these articles and judge for themselves if they would welcome the GOP convention here in Tampa regardless of previous concerns presented such as cost, benefits and hurricane season. Will you welcome the GOP based on these articles? And if you do, please express your opinion based on Bush's announcement and the editorial. I take it, the cost to taxpayers and the thousands of additional people here during the height of hurricane season is not enough to get people to speak up. Maybe George himself and this Times editorial will get mouths to speak!

A convention of confusion.

Jack - I read the article today. It was refreshing to see it on the Editorial page with the full name of a reader in Hudson.

Agree with you on most points. But of course the SPTimes, Tampa Trib, and others must share some of the blame or glory. Jack, it takes more than "a rocket scientist to weigh the pros and cons" if verifiable data is not on the table. Period!

I hoped to see such data in your post. Not there. I went to the Hudsonites LTE to find it, since you referred to it. Not there. At some time in the past I know I saw some partial info. in the SPTimes.

The Hudsonite starts, "If the community loses the bid....". As Times Staff says, they are also part of the community. None of us is likely to lose something we do not have and may neither want nor need. Most likely the real loser will be the promoter who is not assuring that the full cost-benefit data/estimate is in front of us, regularly.

Updated at least monthly. That is the primary blame! If competing cities vying... say negatively that "the Tampa community is not behind the bid." it is probably because that is the truth. Gross or global estimates, smoke screens, lack of full truth re beneficiaries, etc. Normally, on average, these are not visible.

The spin re Dem. or GOP? My wife and I flip a coin to see which of us will register as Dem. or Rep. We want to winnow any truth from the material being sent by either/both. In a nation with one or more million ACTs/Amer. Citizen Taxpayers in leadership positions it is a major disappointment to have to normally vote for "the lesser of two evils", disappointments!

Re:A convention of choice

Just what data that you keep demanding is acceptable to you Fenn. As my understanding the total cost of this convention is estimated at $142-million. The overall total cost to taxpayers is $85-million with $19-million estimated from Tampa. There is an expected 50,000 supporters with the possibility of up to 500,000 protesters. The possible revenue collected from the proceeds of this convention for the area is estimated at $180-million. I received this info from the Times and cannot dispute or offer any data of my own. Either you accept this data or you don't. No biggie!

Jack - Data questions.

Jack, the $142 million is a composite; The $180 million is also an estimate/composite. To me that means that there is a breakdown of individual items - and that is what is needed to get toward your goal of much responses. Whose ox is gonna be gored, the most?

The SPTimes cited Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio as saying that she had said that they would ante up $1 million - when some public figure or developer quoted her at a much higher figure. You cite $19 million from Tampa. The gaps between $1 million, $19 million, and $142 million are very large.

Hope you recognize that there is great interest, plus a need, re the details between a few million and $142. Somebody is going to get their clock cleaned! Could you print a figure you estimate will be the actual "left holding the bag" figures for all taxpayers, with a breakdown for PinCo, St. Pete, and others.

Of the 50,000 supporters, what number will be local, and Fla.

Jack - Convention critique is your baby!

Jack, at first I got involved in this GOP Convention solely to be supportive to you because I thought you might want to develop some teamwork within itsy. You got some crumbs here and you are satisfied, but you can't see the connection with the low response.

Now I am "demanding" something? Something "acceptable" to me - rather than a normal breakout and estimate. Just common sense, Jack. You allege that Business people, etc., are some majority within itsy guests, perhaps as spies.

Jack, if you think that being abrasive is the kind of teamwork that will help you to attain your personal goal of body count on this pet project, proceed.... I think that cooperation works better.

The crumbs that you cite are internally inconsistent. But - you don't want to hear this. So....

GOP convention

Fenn, it makes no difference to me personally who says what or how many people respond to the issue of the GOP convention. I know that personally I will not benefit one iota from the proceeds of this convention, but I wish to see my tax dollars go to more worthy causes such as to people dependent on Medicaid, or to schools where teachers do not have to use their own money to pay for suppies and helping drefay costs of rising Citizens insurance policies. I am just an average working citizen, taxpayer and veteran who is against the spending of taxpayer dollars whether it be one or millions for little more than a glorified "party"!
The current red hot issue on this website is the pets of Katrina which I have no problem with. The all time subjects to date are Chuck Norris jokes, Jennifer Porter and New comics for the Times. People will speak up about what interests them and it is evident that the GOP convention is not one subject of interest. I cannot give exact facts and figures on who will benefit, not benefit or the total amount that will be tallied by the taxpayers. I may have presented the GOP convention in broad terms but enough for people to get the general idea of its pros and cons. If Tampa should be selected at least I can say that I tried to point out issues of concern. Let's just say that I weigh the cons more than the pros and leave it at that and also leave it to people that wish to express their views. I know where you are coming from Fenn and I sincerely thank you for participating in this issue.

Re: A convention of confusion

Yeh Fenn! It is such a shame that we cannot vote anymore for the candidate we like the most but who we dislike the least. Let's ask the Times to post their article in which I refer to on this web site. Then we can all judge on whether they are bias or just printing news. I will admit that I am strongly against the Republican Party and this is not just a Bush thing, although he has contibuted immensely to my belief that the Republicans are nothing but executives for big business. All I seek is for peoples' opinions on how they feel about the GOP convention coming here. No biggie if they support it or don't. For christ sake we have an open line of communication here and I saw at one point where 42 guests were online. Speak up! No dog will bite you in the ass unless you turn your back on it!

Jack - Why so few responses?

42 guests online! Wonder how many posts of value that generated?

Jack, I assume that the frustration you were expressing within the latter half of your post was not directed at me. Assumedly not!

Re dogs, and ass-biting. Are you saying that we have an open line of communication but - dog won't bite, or horse won't drink, or humans won't write. In fun, Jack, because this is a vexing problem which goes well beyond the two of us - and Mayor, Alexis, etc., and certainly Allan of TomPaine.

Re Midtown - within the past month I ran a little survey when this thread reached the 3,000 mark. If you discounted my posts and those of ModPaul there was less than 1% as a response rate. Overall, on posts compared to lookys - the ratio seems to be 1-2% responses.

And that includes doggerel, snide comments, communications/answers which were a sentence or two. If people have opinions which are credible and fact-based, then I seek them. If they are gas, or inane hatred of one party....

You should have more than enough info re my opinions. Systems designed to fail have greater interest to me/us, and why the Non-voting Party is bigger than either of our Two Party System majors.

Fenn....so few responses because........

The majority of Americans are the die-hard working class struggling to make ends meet and have no means to voice their opinions such as you or I in simply the fact that they cannot afford a computer or have the time to pursue other means. The retired people on fixed incomes are also in the same boat.
As far as the amount of guests I see online when I visit this website, it is of my opinion that they are goverment and big business people monitoring the responses to issues that are affecting them as politicans, appointees and their business endeavors.
The bottom line here Fenn is that the people who wish to speak up do not have the convenience as you and I and will not take the time to offer their opinions in any other way. It proves that the growing amount of guests online are by no means supporters but just spies who will justify their concerns that few is not many and march on. Indeed a shame but reality as well!

Jack and Times Staff - Why Itsy is lagging!

Itsy/itsyourtimes is lagging - badly in my view - because of failures in design and management. It was not designed to succeed, and reach the basic needs of readers. Management has, in fact, designed a system which is clearly between a design to fail and a design to underachieve. And the evidence - they don't care?

Who does care? ModPaul seems to have itsy as one of plural assignments, and possibly as a minor one. He seems to have an impossible task. His picture appears in the Neighborhood section, and his plural articles appear on p.3, continued onto p.4 and perhaps others. Good man, weak support!

Editorial Dept., the last I knew, had Eric Lacker as the responsible person for LTE/Letters. He selects a limited number, doesn't provide the background info on the LTE activity, and verifies complete names, etc., on all LTE people before they are allowed to print.

Very different for ModPaul, Moderator. All the relevant people - Eric, Paul, most of those SPTimes ees I have met, are NPGIs. Nice People with Good Intentions. But, they are SPTimes ees. And there is a reward system for SPTimes that puts barriers around their work.

Itsy has been designed without a reward system. You, or Mayor, or Eileen, etc. - could write Pulitzer-level posts and get xero recognition or support. By design! Allan particularly is a different matter. He doesn't get training, support, advice from SPTimes - yet he is vastly hard-working and overly-productive!

So, Jack and Times Staff - I agree with you for the most part. But the itsyourtimes part is largely bull. Was it really ever intended to be our times?? DO YOU WANT GOOD IDEAS?? Have you even/ever sought such inputs from us, your readers?

Jack, I don't know how you know that "government and big business" guests are the majority. And that we are some form of elitists with "convenience"? But here's a bottom line: Why don't we try to find out? You watch SPTimes articles.

Have you seen any? Even 5-25 - compared to Terri Schiavo's 500-plus and the coming tsunami of John Couey coverage. Articles which talk up itsy, and participation. Or some of the best ideas and insights which come out in itsy. Let me know.

Lack of support. Lack of ads or promotion. No reward structure. User hostile or User-baffling, not User friendly. Lack of sound management. Lack of guest/reader involvment. Secrecy and "Times Staff" anonymity. And more. Lack of response!

News Reader - Divisive, arrogant, near totally wrong!

News Reader - Why are you ashamed to identify yourself? I suggest to you, and respectfully, that only by being anonymous would you have the nerve to make such statements.

"I think you are trying to misunderstand..." is pure garbage. As an American I don't like having people arrogantly try to shove something down our throats. "...create an opportunity to criticize the Times."
That is pure dribble. Please find the courage to be specific!

For nearly 15 years my wife and I have been readers of the SPTimes. We like it, or we wouldn't keep renewing. But it is not perfect! And it has enough excellent people to recognize that the opportunity to criticize is mandatory for a growing project such as itsy. We like it at the 80-90% level.

If you have to hide, then shame on you! Get specific, before you know what freezes over. And read your own itsy material. PaulS has stated that we might disagree, and even - hold your breath - argue.

You have one concept of itsy/itsyourtimes. But your key and #1 advertisement is that it is YOUR times - and that means us. SPTimes readers as citizens and enjoying freedom. At some point you need to open up a thread, for freedom and constructive discussion.

"a free, blank page" - is that something you dreamed up. What if one of your readers likened your restrictive view of itsy to Gitmo, a prison compound with guard towers and barbed wire, etc. Neither of us would like to address/defend that comparison. Freedom is built through something other than myopia, dogmatism.

A free page? You have forgotten that the We The Readers part of the SPTimes pays your salary through subscriptions and paperbox coins. Your defensiveness is correlated with your performance reviews, raises and pay hikes, etc. And perhaps even your ego needs to have a servile group of people who post without making waves.

Basically you are saying that you gave birth to itsy in a perfect state - any reader who DARES TO SUGGEST IMPROVEMENTS is a bad person, and you will slap wrists and tell them to go home. (Or refuse to sort their laundry?? - pretty snotty!) Get it straight. I am home, and itsy is My Times.

I CHALLENGE YOU - Find the personal integrity and courage to come out front, in itsyourtimes.com - state YOUR case (with the missing specifics), share your information - and I will respond. In writing and constructively. In the best interests of itsy and the SPTimes.

News Reader - Where's the beef? Put up or....

News Reader - You allege "missing it" - but there's no evidence you ever - got it. What is "it", what am I allegedly missing. All you have is negativity, tripled. Consider your single item below - WUSF and NPR.

News Reader must be familiar with the SPTimes NIE/Newspapers In Education project. NIE is where you - from Kindergarten/HeadStart to Elem. School - learn to Read News. You missed it?

You dither, "You've again created assertions out of thin air...."? Examples, even one? None. Then, "But for an argument to be useful...". Specifics, examples, evidence, anything? Again, zero. "Don't waste our time talking...."? Again, zero, zip, nil.

Hoping your rant went somewhere I clicked on "news reader". Track, history - member for 20 plus weeks. Nine forum topics or stories? Only one by author News Reader. 17 weeks ago. Replies = Zero, again, seeing a pattern?

Anything constructive, any argument above triviality? Any constructive suggestions? Again, zero? Major insight: "no one listens to the music". Any research to back up this globalesque slam against WUSF? None. Except - You don't like it; and don't like pledges.

Your wisdom is that they should go to NPR and News, because you like it. Everybody else is out of step with you? Suppose that WUSF plays a lot of music because the majority prefer it, and advertisers support this?

CHALLENGED AGAIN. No response to the first challenge. Only some wierdo allegation - unsupported - about??? missing it.

Daddy won't be the only one that is affected though

NR:

I already said that if the Rep convention is held here...and there is a hurricane...it would be fine if everyone got up except the Republicans who could stay in the dome reading Ann Coulter and listening to Dixie Chicks.

Of course, in reality...there would be others affected and that is not a good thing.

I will say this...as far as inferiour complexes and such...Tampa Bay is known for one thing all over the US and even abroad...STRIP CLUBS. I have nothing against strip clubs, per se...but I swear that every where I go...outside of Tampa Bay...and tell people "i am from st. petersburg"...they first say "Russia???" and then I say ..."NO...Tampa...St. Pete area in Florida" and they all grin and say "OH...where all those strip clubs are!". It is almost cliche at this point.

I guess to that end- the Republican convention would even the scales on conservative and liberalism -eh?

Of course I contend that the fat cats would be over at Mons...after their prayer group- stuffing dollars into the g-strings of the dancers.

As for being against the convention being in the area just because it is Republican in nature-that doesn't factor into my being a nay sayer. The reasons not to have it here- have been discussed ad nauseum and are valid- Hurricane season and lack of public transportation come to mind.

Me too

Good luck in trying to use this site for intelligent discourse. I concede that I gave up to posting to this website when I got spanked for taking on Allen. Most of the postings from the regulars are agenda-driven and don't come close to addressing the issues under discussion in the threads. I got spanked for being less than civil, but the Times allows these ideologues to intimidate others and to control this site. Just goes to show that in this age of political correctness, the obligation to not offend supercedes the right to call a nut a nut..

Sensibilities - Don't give it up!

You sound down, but please don't hang it up. There's too much bleep going in this society - and effecting people in the SPTimes area - for good people to waffle.

What are a couple of your priorities for the "intelligent discourse" you seek? Are you referring to Allan of Tom Paine? Allan briefer would be more effective than the long version, and a couple of responses to him have implied that he should be spanked, for excessive use of a four-letter-word - Marx.

If so, very lengthy but perhaps adaptable. (Editor of The Weekly Challenger had to sit me down and impose a 650-700 word limit/range before I learned some common sense at the start of a 65-column string of columns I wrote.

No spanking, just interested. No taking sides. Would like to know why you "got spanked". Hey, I've spanked, and there's generally two perspectives. And a learning curve.

Got a couple things well worth printing? Please! It took me more than a couple of weeks, and plural patient emails from ModPaul/Swider
before learning....

Civility? Eye of the beholder, sometimes. Looking forward....

Spankings are in the eye of the beholder - or not

As you asked, I got spanked for the Allan Greene Insult Collection (found under the "Pride Amid a Protest" thread) which did nothing but compile Allan’s insults (though I concede it did not do so comprehensively, because to do so would be a full time job).

I'm Having Elvis' Baby.

A lot that gets posted here takes the form of what I call "I'm Having Elvis' Baby" communiques. The posts are a little bit more coherent than schizophrenic word-salad, but not much. The posts are absurd to those who know better. And, sadly, what the TIMES STAFF expects in response is, "Wow! That's Cool! Congratulations."

Mayor - I already had Elvis' Baby!

(Kidding!) But where do you come off talking about my baby like that. You mus be talkin about that other dawg who had his twins. The King and I adopted a coupla leprechauns from Ireland. But that was in the good old days.

You know, Mayor, I'm glad for you that you get so many letters printed. If they are anonymous we may have been deprived of the pleasure of reading some good ideas.

SPTimes has opened a door. Poynter owns them and has been wanting Citizen Journalism to evolve for some years, as with the Charlotte Observer. ModPaul and a few payrollees may have some trepidation if waves are made.

But Robyn Blumner the Invisible was right on with the title of one of her Editorials - The Power of ....... Thought. Like most SPTimes Editorial writers they don't dispute the description of "Merry-go-round popgunners". Maybe they don't like it, or fear it, or wish they had the freedom to write as we write....

But your final sentences were super! "And, sadly, what the TIMES STAFF expects in response is, "Wow! That's Cool! Congratulations."

Martin Dyckman And I Had This Conversation.

I was pretty clear when I told Martin that blogs and other interactive forums are the future of journalism. It's a New World of possibilities and personalities that emasculates the existing journalism culture. We've not had such a time since the 1800s when every town had 2 or 3 papers and there was some glorious writing being done.

I collect old newspaper articles. Much of the material is hilarious and well-written. Or devastating and well-written. Or damning and well-written. No one writes like Twain or William Tappan Thompson or Joel Chandler Harris anymore. The TIMES editorial staff would collapse from apoplexy if a writer like Macon submitted maxims written in Black plantation vernacular today.

But we have an opportunity to have better! in this New Age. And better will be the salvation of the TIMES.

A.J.Macon Aphorisms.

The noise in the wheels dont measure the load in the wagon.

Even a blind horse knows when the trough is empty.

A smart rabbit goes home before the snow stops falling.

You cant coax a Morning Glory to climb the wrong way around a cornstalk.

Sensibilities

You did not get spanked for taking on Allan. Maybe you interpreted it that way...but I think...where I was concerned at least, I just said that if Allan wants to posit 73 points...so be it...and we always have an option of scrolling down. The thing is that...at least...Allan takes the time to give his point of view...and support it. I mean..he at least contribute...unlike a lot of folks that BM & C about no valid discussions...however never contributing to the exchequer.
When I worked at Democratic Headquarters...people would often call "what are the Democrats doing about this that and the other" I would say..."And to what party do you belong?" They would scoff and say "why Democrats...of course (and they were probably rolling their eyes) My response "so...you are a democrat...calling me to moan and complain...what the hell are you doing...do you want to come to HQ and stuff envelopes...make copies of the democratic agenda". They were...most times...silenced. And then...they would say "okay". 1/2 never showed...some did...but it really pissed me off to have us be the proverbial THEY..."what are they doing". NO>>>>What are you doing.

Right sentiment, wrong conclusion

I wasn’t criticized for objecting to the length, verbosity, or redundancy of Allan’s posts – which I think you would agree I have the right to object to whether you like it or not. I was criticized for a lack of “civility.” Alexis, I sense you are a very nice person, but don’t assume – you know the old saying, which I won’t repeat here.

Sorry Sensibilities

Oh...now I remember. I had forgotten about that part. My apologies for making an A out of me...lol.

Well...I get criticized and figuratively spanked...too. I was rejected on some post or another because of my language. The thing is that I couldn't figure out which post; however I think I did. I wrote something about the World cup...and put a hypothetical conversation that I thought Marco from Italy and Zidane from France may have had- to cause the head butt. It was done in jest but I used the f word. Actually, though, it is printed now under Letters- so?

If that wasn't the one- I have no idea. I try to refrain from curse except the occasional arse.

Sensibilities

You did not get spanked for taking on Allan. Maybe you interpreted it that way...but I think...where I was concerned at least, I just said that if Allan wants to posit 73 points...so be it...and we always have an option of scrolling down. The thing is that...at least...Allan takes the time to give his point of view...and support it. I mean..he at least contribute...unlike a lot of folks that BM & C about no valid discussions...however never contributing to the exchequer.
When I worked at Democratic Headquarters...people would often call "what are the Democrats doing about this that and the other" I would say..."And to what party do you belong?" They would scoff and say "why Democrats...of course (and they were probably rolling their eyes) My response "so...you are a democrat...calling me to moan and complain...what the hell are you doing...do you want to come to HQ and stuff envelopes...make copies of the democratic agenda". They were...most times...silenced. And then...they would say "okay". 1/2 never showed...some did...but it really pissed me off to have us be the proverbial THEY..."what are they doing". NO>>>>What are you doing.

Itsy bitsy teeny weeny

I wondered about the site. I submit a letter a day...but to the editors...
I don't complain as the times have published some of my very very controversial letters in the past. One time...i was so fired up...that I hand wrote...in red ink on a small note pad...a letter. It was published...lol.

I got something sent to me this am...for language that I used. I think I might have said arse...but am unsure...Anyway,of no consequence since I post so much that something lost is no big deal.

I don't know exactly what the guidelines are about getting things published in the paper per se. I know it has to be "on topic". I know the word usage should be limited, etc. I also know that when I attended the Democratic Convention in 2003...my letter was at the top o' the page...cause I signed it Pinellas County Executive Committee Member...and my name. Maybe I have more to say if I am -in some way- involved in something outside of sitting home in my pjs writing....but the thing is that...when I wrote that post on Dem. convention...I was home in my Pjs writing...I just was able to add some "validity" to my post??? Who knows.

This site should be monitored only to a degree. We are big boys and girls and can judge for ourselves what content we dislike...and if we choose to read/respond...so be it.

I do have to say that-at times- I post a lot more than others. For example...on a sabbatical from work...so am able to log in and fire away.

Alexis, Please stay the course. Grandkids....

Please. I just plain well fear for the future of our progeny if some of us don't work on that turtlewax - Hard shell finish.

We need to focus. The SPTimes has some pretty solid people in mgt. If someone in itsy's chain starts to unduly corrupt the freedom of we/readers/non-employees, then there are some strong options. Perhaps that is why I get an occasional tinge of fear, from those who would prefer docility. Etc.

Entertainment 101

If Paul Swider doesnt know this he shouldnt be in the newspaper business. Readers like conflict and controversy and passion and scandals and carnivals. Too many Girl Scout Cookie events and Eagle Scout Award ceremonies or reports about how to cleanse & sanitize gerbils decimate your audience. Every editor I've known instinctively goes for the 'hook' in any report their people hobble together. If it isnt there, they better find it. Newspapers are the 'show' that ad revenues support. And the entertainment value of the show draws the crowd.

Most Of My Letters Get Published.

Most of my letters to the TIMES and TRIB get published. Sometimes I'm amazed theyre published. But neither will print my harpoons aimed at Jeb Bush. I've been interviewed a few times in both papers.

Some years ago I discovered, quite by accident, that the local papers DO NOT like to get involved in the private scandals of public people. I wont mention the paper, but I listened to a telephone conversation between a reporter and an editor,and the editor did not want the reporter anywhere near what was happening, though the event had strayed off the reservation, so to speak, and was public by virtue of where it was happening. There is some degree of incest between papers and public officials.

My God Mayor!

Is there anything you have not done or anything you do not know about? I too have had numerous letters published by the Times but will not print anything I say in behalf of the local VA Medical Centers. If you indeed heard such a conversation between a reporter and their editor denying the public of such news and ignoring it, then how can you justify that there is some degree of incest (very poor choice of word) between papers and public officials?

Jack, I've Never Dry-cleaned A Gerbil.

As Roger Miller, the philosopher once observed...

Oh! You caint rollerskate in a buffalo herd; but you can be happy if youve a mind to! All ya gotta do is put yer mind to it, knuckle-down, buckle-down, do it, do it, do it.

"Times Staff" - anonymous lurkers? Itsy's enemies?

A couple of minutes ago there was one user - "Times Staff" - and eight guests. Since the name of this system is itsyourtimes, which assumedly focuses primarily/largely on readers, who are the "guests".

And who are you people, the "Times Staff" who feel a need to be anonymous? Are you friends or enemies of either the SPTimes or we volunteers who invest time in a system "Merely to tell the truth". Is this a scam, to use us/readers toward topics you are pushing?

If you are readers you will probably remember that the Letters to the Editor section in Editorials requires writers to clearly and verifiably provide their names. And that Phil Gailey has editorialized against incivility.

It's obvious that incivility is involved when some hooded "Times Staff" tries to take over and manipulate itsy/itsyourtimes. Your latest gambit was to massage itsy toward your concept of "news". To you a guessing game about huge numbers of protestors - even below a half million - is "news"?

By the way, does anyone know anything about Robyn Blumner. Has she left the SPTimes? Do Editorial columnists just write about active citizenship and Amer. problem solving - then scram?

Fenn...are there spies in our midst?

I need to get my compact out which turns into a supersonic x-ray microscope and see who on this board is an imposter.

Sheesh...I notice too that there are much more guests than named entities on this board. What's that all about, Alfie?

I guess I have a couple of schools of thought on this...

Back in 2000...and until maybe 2003...there was this GREAT site called mediawhoresonline.com No one could figure out who ran it...and why they did not identify themselves. They would post names and articles about all the journalists that sold themselves out - it was a GREAT site...The writers were grand...etc.

After a time...on a forum such as this...the people were all up in arms because they wanted to know who was behind this...I argued that it really did not matter...because you either agree or disagree with what they write...and would it matter if the person making the statements was a retired plumber of the Queen of England. Moreover, if it mattered...then that is really not right...as we are all entitled to our opinion- no matter where we come from or what we have been through...and that just because it is our opinion...doesn't mean that everyone has to believe. We all can research for ourselves.

It was not only the users of mediawhores...but salon and others did an article on it...it was all so amusing to a degree...

The funny thing was...and still is...that when the site first went up...there were pictures and bios of the writers...I revealed that to the group but told them that my lips were sealed...as I figured it was of no consequence one way or the other.

Now...as this forum goes...if people are using it to be spies...and report to certain groups about the goings on here...that is immoral...but you know what...even if they list who they are...they may not really be who they are...

A rose by any other name...is not always a rose.

Alexis - Straight and constructive, not spies.

Peace, Amiga. mediawhoresonline.com Wow, my education surges ahead. Sort of an Il Prostituto for the working press - if such a site existed.

Merely to tell the truth - the whole truth. The elimination of confusion and double talk, smoke screens. My preference rather consistently is to try to accept people as they present themselves, but to probe and stay alert at first. Open up, exchange.

Strongly, I would prefer to find SPTimes people openly supportive of a reader-oriented and user-friendly site. Really - our Times! As a former univ-prof and corp manager I seemingly have a pretty strong framework for analyzing organization and management.

Some of itsy seems wrong!

Thus, prefer to find what exists, the truth, check out goals and practice, and pursue constructive changes. Both to the site and the hangups facing our ACTs/Amer.Cit.Taxpayers - and our grandas.

SPTimes is a really fine paper - at 80-90% - with some distinct problems. It has many excellent people, fun folks, and predictably a couple real stinkers. Statistics - normal distribution curves. Enuf

Being paranoid about "spies". Ridiculous - fully agree with you. And you mention some distortion/warping (from pix and bios) of the mediawhores site. Hopefully by being open and forward we can avoid most of that. Perhaps homeland security has too many of us looking in the shadows for spies and terrorists/cowardists.

GOP convention

I believe we have established the fact that no one knows for sure how many protesters will show up should Tampa be selected for the GOP convention.
Let's move on to the cost of this convention. Does anyone feel that taxpayer revenue in the amount of $85-million from Florida (overall) should be given to help defray the total expected cost of $142-million, if my memory serves me correctly? By the way! GOP supporters say they have no problem with making up additional costs. So big of them!

Times Staff is just that

This site is operated by the St. Pete Times. No mystery. We post under that moniker so there is no confusion about identities. We don't use individual names because different people work on the site and we don't want reader to misunderstand whether or not they are staff. You'll not Times Staff merely posts links and queries, not editorializing posts. This is your Times, we are just here to mecahnically and objectively guide the site's operation. When the tally at right shows guests, it means there are people reading the site but not logged in as registered members. Only registered members can post, so when they log in, their user name will appear. Sometimes the simplest explanations are the only ones needed.

Dearmadamorsir - Times Staff = more confusion!

Dear Madam or Sir - the Times Staff has created even more confusion. Your need for anonymity is not explained. One of more statements seem to clash with the Times motto - Merely to tell the truth. The site has multiple problems, and later a few can be cited.

Ditto for your post. Let's take some of your statements, later, and illustrate some of your phrases - and how they come across. And perhaps a few that belie your intent! But first a couple of items:

1) "We post under..." "We don't use..." "...we don't want..." "we are just here..." We We We we - sounds like the Three Little Pigs. No insult intended, but aren't you at risk that the poor little people who read the SPTimes will be demeaned?

2) The Poynter Institute - should be ignored??? This is at least the third time that The Charlotte Project has been cited. Have you, dearmadamorsir, read The Poynter Papers: No. 4? 1994 - 12 years ago - by Edward D. Miller for The Poynter Institute for Media Studies.

Subtitled: Helping citizens take back democracy. Preface and p.4: "We have to try to distance ourselves from the people that we write about....and move ourselves closer to the people we write for - the voters and the potential voters." By David Broder.

Lots more on this! But Broder speaks of a double disconnect with voters and readers. He seems later to be concerned by a "control freak" tendency in some papers/managers. Re itsy, I believe that freedom, a recognition that we are volunteers and investors (as well as ACTs, American Citizen Taxpayers), and 2-3 other critical elements need to be considered and discussed.

3) Mutual trust and respect - is needed, is critical, and is largely absent. Respectfully, for you, dearmadamorsir, to impose your construct as you have, ignores the wealth of talent and vibrant democracy which seems evident on itsy. Part #1 reply; more to come.

Re: Half million not coming?

Fenn should love this post by the "Times Staff!" It was suggested that this covention could draw up to 550,000 protesters downsized to 20,000 by GOP supporters. In any case the number of protesters that will come will be very dependent on the weather situation at the time of the convention. Would the city be prepared? I don't think the city will be prepared for such a mega evacation plan should the convention not come at all. I cannot prove if these figures will be correct on the possible additional amount of people this convention will draw as well as I can say we will be threatened by a major hurricane at this time. As far as bidding for the convention, is it worth the risk no hurricane will be eminant and gambling our taxpayer dollars away for an event that may never come about or do GOP supporters have little crystle balls fortelling the future?

Jack et alii - "Just gimme the facts...".

Hi Jack - And the alleged "Times Staff" is exactly Who? Perhaps these are cross-dressing GOP provocateurs, wanting to create fear, political pandemics, some other nonsense. Now I am confident that we would communicate - perhaps on-line and the record - if we wanted to get this latest "Times Staff" rain.

Did I miss something - Jack, and Alexis, Mayor, and He who writes profusely - but did we get some solid estimates of the cost of prepping for 100k, 300k, even 500,000 protestors. If the SPTimes and Times Staff are serious about these potential volumes of protestors it would seem like good journalism to have reasonably detailed CBA or Cost-Benefit Analysis figures.

Perhaps our nearest Governor of the Bush League persuasion has held the Fla. tax surplus for our use re protestor security. If not, it could be a gag reflex for local taxpayers. All or a strong majority of the costs. Very little or possibly negative image benefits!

And regarding itsy - there is a better way! Much too much which I have been unable to find about "our times". Too much that makes me leery until a lot of cards, history, etc., is on the table. We The People, Freedom of the Press with Freedom of Speech, on and on. No answers to prior email to Paul Tash.

Dont Hold Your Breath.

It aint gonna happen. Tampa comes to a screeching halt when Hillary drives thru town; it will never cope with hundreds of dignitaries, much less 1000s of protestors.

Mayor - and then there is triple-security!

Forgot to comment that the hyper-security will triple the constriction. When Hilary came, did they bottle up Tampa-entirety to the extent they will will all the GOP brass? Predictably, will al-Qaeda issue a warning to the GOP about Armageddon?

Mayor - Full agreement, but no breath-holding.

It aint gonna happen - agreed. But we both have seen interested minor and self-serving parties resurrect that which is undead, and crawls. Also, we are trying to put on record some concerns, and some suspicions. How many times have we welcomed the shaft!!

About breath holding - weren't there 3-4 points in my preceding post? I'm guessing about which was your forecast. The larger concern is the integrity of itsy. Who set up what rules, and why? To what extent were readers have a real shot at the kind of follow-up which apparently constrains Times Staff - the real ees.

Mayor, our revisiting of Margraten (Military Cem.) over the Fourth honed our rekindling of the gut-level need to try to see if our system can be rerouted prior to running aground. Today's political-editorial cartoon was on point.

jack lol posting twice

I did the same thing on the forum for the gay pride parade...posted twice. This was the 2nd major faux pas that I did on this board...and being somewhat of an uptight anal retentive perfectionist...i was all messed up about it...lol...but alas -believe it or not...No one condemned me for it.

It's alright. Post twice...not the end of the world.

Oh, you owe me a beer...LOL. I will -if ever in St. Pete- take you up on it!

A beer owed!

Well Alexis, glad you are out of harms way as we are approaching the pre-height of hurricane season. Perhaps we can have that beer sometime and when your in town...post me twice! Post me three times if the GOP convention is here and your are also. Perhaps we can find a shelter that serves beer! Take care Alesis!

Sorry about the mis-spell Alexis

Sorry!

Alexis lol, "very serious problems".

Alexis - Any chance you could help us get back on track re this GOP Convention post by Times Staff? In Jack's first post to me after I responded to them Jack stated that he had some "very serious issues" re the GOP Convention.

They haven't come forward since then and I feel there is a legitimate concern about time-wasting, hypocrisy, and ego. Instead there has been a series of hard words and ego-involved efforts to override the Times Staff post to take credit for something which could have been done by Jack - First, alone, better?

Double posting - Who really would believe that most of us have not done this all by ourselves? Deal me in for half a dozen.

Thanks Fenn!

I take this post as an understanding of what my objectives are and I sincerly appreciate that. My serious issues are based on the fact that this GOP convention will be held in the height of hurricane season with a possible 550,000 additional people here in the Tampa Bay area. Although I don't have a crystal ball and cannot for sure say there will be a threat of a major hurricane in this area, it is food for thought and indeed a serious one. I also cannot agree to one penny of taxpayer's dollars being spent on any part of this convention as there are so many other avenues of needed revenue. If I and Alexis do ever have that beer, you are most welcome to join us and bring the Mayor along if he wants. Allan, you are also welcome but please keep conversation to a minimum.
No pun intended to anyone! You are all great and love this itsy site as it does give opportunity for speaking what is on your mind. I'm sure my posting twice days aren't over (hehe). Have a great 4th of July.....everyone!

Jack, Alexis, Mayor - back on track.

The hurricane problem is so obvious that I would be surprised if the GOP would not consider it a disqualifier at the 90% level. But then there is politics....

Taxpayers giving away taxpayer dollars without a fully-informed group of taxpayers is always a frostee. On record - Times Staff can/should tell us lots more.... If a well-informed population wants some benefits from a GOP Convention they should have the right.

But, Jack, I think I am saying what you have said. Did such a group decide that we needed the sports team, arenas, etc? Good luck on getting well-informed locals this Convention - with limited benefits, for limited people, etc.

The informed ACTs (Amer. Citizen Taxpayers) need the info/data on the myriad options/needs re tax money. Shouldn't the SPTimes do a better job of presenting the cost/benefit on real and local alternatives? That is where I was initially headed.

With no reference to you, Jack, I still believe that we in itsy should insist on more and better from Times Staff or PaulS when a new topic is presented. (And there are several!!) If we are serious in investing our time within itsy then we need to be predictable in steaming a forehand back at Times Staff whenever mediocrity....

Alexis and Jack - Thanks for being constructive and unifying. And Mayor, gracias re recognizing that John Couey presented an open door to a hot issue - law and order with justice. Happy Fourth, all.

GOP convention...Jack's Post

Tampa is one of 30 cities invited to host and bid on the Republician National Convention. Only four have shown interest (Tampa, Cleveland, Minneapolis, New York). Three have offered reasons for declining; San Diego declined because it cares more for resident concerns and needs. Orlando and Charlotte N.C. declined because of cost factors to them.
If Tampa is chosen, it will cost Florida taxpayers an overall estimated $85-million and will draw up to 50,000 supporters with a possible 500,000 protesters which was downsized to 20,000 by local GOP supporters with reasoning that Tampa's transportation network isn't evolved enough to handle more. If protesters can get here they will come no matter what transportation network is available.
What are your thoughts on having the GOP convention in Tampa?
1. Will the convention, which is speculated to bring an economic surge to the area of up to $300-million "indrectly" affect you personally as an individual, business owner, taxpayer or voter?
2.Do you feel that taxpayers should spend $1 on what is becoming not party affillation but monetary supremency in who our next president will be?
3.Do you feel that $85-million should be siphoned from tax revenue to help defray costs of a political convention when desperately needed elsewhere such as supporting Citizens Property Insurance, education, healthcare, ect.?
4.Do you feel it is realistic and wise to allow up to a possible 550,000 additional people here at the height of hurricane season?
5.If the convention and a hurricane comes to Tampa and an evacuation is ordered who do you feel will have priorities in being evacuated first and what additional cost will be involved to have a alternate evacuation plan in affect?
6.Do you feel that the choice of having the GOP convention here in Tampa is just for politicans and their supporters to decide or for all residents to decide as well?
I invite comments as well as other questions from all that are willing to express their views. Although the convention is not till 2008, it is my understanding that the site will be chosen in January, 2007. This is not that far away! What is basically wrong with this country is the fact that we are allowing politicians and their millionaire supporters to make decisions for us and then it is much to late to complain.

GOP convention at the height of Hurricane Season

NO NO NO NO NO.

I had said, in jest, to have it and evacuate all but the attendees...however having a father that is a Republican...and could might well possibly be there...I wouldn't want that to happen.

Tampa Bay area is NOT ready for anything that big. They would not be ready for the Olympics, either. The traffic is horrific and would be much more so during a convention. Further, Tampa Bay does not exactly have even what could be construed as a mass transit system that is effective. That is a cryin' shame...because that area DESPERATELY needs to have buses that are able to run on time...sans the 1.5 hour waits, etc. that one is relegated to should they decide to utilize the system.

I remember when I worked at Tyrone Square mall... I had to be at work at 10AM. I got up at 6...(waited for the bus outside of St. Raphael's church in Snell island). Bus came...and took me to Williams' Park. I waited there for about 1 hour and 45 minutes...then the bus would come...and I would...get to work...in the nick o' time. Getting home at night...forgetaboutit. My dad was very old school...so there was no chance of him picking me up. LOL. His favorite two works to me as a teen..."hoof it". Anyway, I probably should have hoofed it...cause it would have taken a shorter time. I think I learned some valuable lessons from this...to a degree...as far as character building...but boy did i do some cursing out of my parents, the PSTA or whatever... and god (for making me be born -and that I had to wait for a bus in the rain to make 3.35 cents an hour...so I could go to "Cowboy" on a Friday night. Anywho...I digress.

As I said in a former post...if there was a possibility that Tampa Bay officials would step up to the plate...should they get the convention...and it would inspire them to build a stellar mass transit entity...then I may think that the means just may justify the ends.

Of course there still remains the issue of Hurricane season. I think that will be a major deterent in the powers that be...picking that area...but who knows. We haven't really seen Rhodes Scholars present in the Republican party...so.

Happy 4th of July!!!!

Eat, Drink and be merry!!!

Great reply Alexis

The traffic on a normal work day even with schools closed is horendous. Just imagine a few million people trying to get out of here at one time. Oh My! And I must say the bus system here is really something to behold. And they stopped the transfers to boot! Enjoy your 4th too!

Traffic and Tampa Bay and GOP

My friend, that is voting Democrat this "semester" lol" sent me an email...

Apparently, in Brandon...there was some sort of 4th celebration. She sent me an email...
contents below...hilarious...but so so so true

Here is a shocker, at the Fourth of July parade Charlie Crist campaign car was a gigantic hummer all magged out and obscenely guzzling all our gas for the hurricanes.....Lord have mercy......go Davis...It has come to this.....I may have to go buy those wretched birkenstocks....just to get my dainty size seven in the door of some unlit ain't paid the light bill Dem headquaters for a sticker....just to save our State.

Re:Traffic and Tampa Bay and GOP

Thank's Alexis for sharing that "shocker" I attended my city parade and there was a Democratic candidate running for State Representative as he was passing out a string of beads with a little round badge attached. I found that rather appauling as this parade was in celebration for the 4th of July. But at least he was walking!

Fair is fair...Jack

Yes...using the parade as a tool to give out campaign stuff is cheap...but...walking is a good thing. The gas required is some good old H2O....and perhaps some gatorade...

but...Allan is right in that he said some of the parties differences aren't there...

Well...going to go and maybe enjoy some FRENCH FRIES since France beat Portugal today...lol

Here's The Problem, Jack.

The problem is not just the Republican Convention, but almost everything. The MONEY doesnt stay here. The maids and lap-dancers will make a few bucks, but most of the MONEY will beat the politicans and pundits back to New York. And the local folks get hosed for the party. This is how it is with the stadiums and everything else that benefits a few fat-cats.

I say use the 85 Million to buy back some of the beach, or whatever will improve the quality of life around here.

Thankyou Mayor

Hey.... we all have to make a living Mayor! And I expect the majority of new attendents to this theater will do just as you say and of course leaving the locals holding the bag of trash. Thanks for your reply.

My Scottish Heart.

Fenn.

My Scottish heart has fits when public money is wasted. A prudent person assesses his needs, prioritizes them, and uses his resources to take care of the most important needs first.

Government and community institutions do not do this.

The unexpressed assumption of government and community institutions is they can get the resources they require from the middle-class taxpayer. Consequently both groups form a confederation to exploit taxpayers for projects that do not directly improve the quality of life for the greatest number of citizens. A stadium is not affordable housing or an adequate source of water or traffic congestion relief or education enhancement. It's a financial windfall for a few and a "one hand washes the other" bargain with your confederates.

And we keep allowing it to happen.

I've always wondered how much depressed property the TIMES buys-up on the South Side, and re-sells or donates to the confederate cause.

Jack.

Hurricanes are my thing, and youre correct in your view that a hurricane will spoil the convention party. "Camille" was supposed to hit the Tallahassee area when it veered into Mississippi, instead. I cannot imagine such a disaster as would unfold across Tampa Bay in such an event. Two hundred mile per hour winds. Twenty-five feet of tidal surge.

Barges and ships ramming bridges and the bottom floors of waterfront condos. Cars and trucks pushed by the water into homes and businesses. Windows exploding all over downtown. Snakes everywhere.

The 1921 storm made Safety Harbor look exactly like a land-fill. The photos are on the state archive website.

Fenn you so funny...lol

That is what my granddaughter says to me.

I agree...Can't we discuss the issues and save the insults?

I swear...I start to reread the boards sometimes and say "what, exactly, were we discussing prior to our prides, etc.

Alexis - grandaughters can be neat!

Alexis - Pat and I have a few neat grandkids who have said the same exact words, or similar. Last year we found we had a couple of great grandkids, so they will be saying - Gramma you so funny....

There are some topics on itsy/itsyourtimes re which I wish we citizen types could make some headway. To benefit the grandkids! Mayor opened one today. John Couey and justice. My post to Mayor tossed out a couple of issues, and each of us have some too.

Alexis, if you and Mayor and others (Jack invited) have interest in developing some views about today's justice system and standards let me know. If you care about this topic I will find the time to put some words in a post for you to massage. Then, have at it!

"Nice people with good intentions" - describes the majority I have known, both black and white Americans. Most people at the SPTimes are so engrossed in filling their "bird cage liner" each day that they are unlikely to proceed without a consensus from us!

CEO Tash - "Times Staff" unprofessional?

Mr. Tash - As CEO you are the leader of "Times Staff". Assumedly you know what they do and would prefer that "Times Staff" not embarrass you, The St. Petersburg Times, its owner the Poynter Foundation, and relevant others including SPTimes staff in general.

Under the heading "GOP convention cost/benefit" in itsy (itsyourtimes.com) on June 7 such an embarrassing and unprofessional post did appear. "How many of us would rather not have such" a post appear - representing us as "our" times?

It's only 3-4 lines. Second sentence - "A convention like that would have an economic impact throughout the region, including St. Petersburg, Clearwater, elsewhere in Pinellas and probably Pasco and maybe other counties and cities." What economic impact are they fuzzily alleging.

Isn't this, Paul, very general and loaded. Specifically what impact and benefits? A limited number of B&Bs/Bed and Breakfasts and a few hotels. Won't most passes and tickets go to GOP contributors and media? And traffic snarls?

Times Staff says, "What is something like this worth to the community"? (The yardstick for cost/benefit worth and benefit?) We are your readers/subscribers. We pay subscriptions and coins. Do you believe that this question is best directed to us - that SPTimes does not have resources and staff to research and answer this?

"If it benefits us all, should we all pay? How much? How much will we get back?" To me this sounds like a synonym for "dumbness", with soupcons of unprofessionalism, laziness, etc. Would this be okayed by the Poynter Institute as an example of good journalism?

For 14 years I have been - at the 80-90% level - a proud subscriber. It grieves me to write a post like this, but your motto still is (to the best of my recall) "Merely to tell the truth". Included respectfully is this suggestion: Don't "Times Staff" have a basic need to read "The Poynter Papers: No. 4"?

1994, by Edward D. Miller, "The Charlotte Project - Helping citizens take back democracy." (Following the election of 1988.) Also printed by The Poynter Institute for Media Studies was a catalog which started with a Mission Statement like this - To empower readers through informing them." Growth? What's going on?

GOP convention post is not the fault of the TIMES..Jack is!

It is unfair to criticise the Times for this post as I sent an email to them suggesting the GOP convention would be a good topic of discussion in its yourtimes.com. As I feel there are some very serious issues involved with this convention taking place here, not only during the height of hurricane season but also with the expenditure of millions of taxpayer's dollars required that is so desperately needed elsewhere, I felt other residents and taxpayers might want to post their concerns as well. The Time's Staff is not to blame and I thank them for posting this subject matter. I must admit, however, that I am disappointed in the number of reads and even more so in the number of responses. I thank those that have responded and I encourage more responses regardless of agreeable or unagreeable views to this subject or my personal posts as this is an avenue for people to let others know how they feel about issues that concern them as individuals and affect them as Florida residents as well as letting our elected representatives know.

Jack, GOP Convention, No Fault.

Jack - Thank you for the clarification. Further - tho you are Jack anon., are you a SPTimes employee? At this time I am concerned about the "you" in itsyourtimes, itsy. Will write later about "Times Staff", and 2Paul, and other options.

It does not seem unfair to me, however, that I responded to words written by some anonymous entity calling itself "Times Staff". Unless I get additional inputs which change my response I will stand behind it. That doesn't mean that I don't want more responses.

From my end, I will respond to serious issues being discussed with specifics by serious people. There is a desire for reciprocity among several key issues/topics which seem vital/serious, so....

The SPTimes as well as itsy are important, and I hope that we and others help them to proceed. My post refers to problems which go back more than a decade, but I see little if anything to be gained by being harsh or unfairly critical. Per your "unfair" comment - specifics?

Bad Jack!

Just playing off your mea culpa.

I too am dissapointed in the lack of response, as this is a major situation for our area. The money makers will make out huge while the rest of us spend a bit more time in traffic. Now that conventions are all "show" and no "go"I think we should do away with them entirely. But if we can't do that, I would certainly appreciate it if they would stay out of my backyard. Rep. and Dems. alike.

And to follow on the coat tails of other posters . . .a convention? In hurricane season? Another well thought out Tampa plan.

"Mea culpa" nice, but unnecessary.

The "more response" need is more important to me than any fixing of blame or mea culpa. My wife Pat and I went through the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics, with heavy involvement. We had a massive area-wide alteration of workhours and traffic.

A convention is smaller but still massive re planning, scheduling, etc. Also the benefits will rest with a smaller circle of people. There is also a parallel with itsy. To what extent was "the community" involved and informed fully in advance.

The lack of response may be linked to the gap in understanding. It is far from unexpected for some group to plan something but feel that too many people with too many questions is something to be avoided. Our poor little brains might get overloaded if a complete package was laid out early.

Follow the money. Follow the benefits. Who gains - esp. if the general public doesn't know too much. Need more responses, more questions - but reciprocity on some other key issues is still needed.

GOP convention

No! I am not a SPTimes employee. I feel it is unfair to blame someone for something that was initiated by someone else. In this case, it was the GOP convention post. Believe me, I have critized the Times in the past as well as praised them in many, many letters to the Editor. Some were published and most were not in which is understandable by me. My only intention of suggesting this post is to get as many people as possible to offer their opinions on the GOP convention.

Divisiveness, Jack - a winner?

Throwing unsupported accusations at potential colleagues is a pretty odd, and seemingly hypocritical way, to get responses. Unfairness is not a accusation I would throw at someone without some specifics.

If you wrote the Times Staff post, then tell me. Otherwise, my post to Times Staff relates to what I saw first - their words. If it is the negative "Jack's way or the hiway" then I question your commitment to the nebulous goal you allege as yours.

Reread my post, Jack. There were relevant questions which I asked - based on Times Staff words. The questions, answers, data. etc., were oriented toward sound discussion and responses. You have not answered the questions either. Ergo, to you, asking questions is "blaming", "unjust"??

Believe me "I have criticized the Times in the past as well as praised them in many, many letters....". Over more than a decade. If you seek merely a headcount then ask it as a quiz re support for the GOP Convention - Yes, No, Maybe?

Otherwise, to get the best readers to give the best responses you need to help all of us get the best facts, data, etc. Your effort to block this appears to be an effort to demean many potential respondents. For respect, a question to you:

"If it benefits us all, should we all pay? How much? How much will we get back." Jack - do you have the missing specifics? Cooperation is certainly available and, in my case, even desirable. But hurling unsubstantiated accusations about "unfairness", and trying to muddy the water - will this best get the goal you say you seek?

Just inpute on the GOP convention please!

First of all, I meant unfairness only in the aspect of the Times not being the originator of this post as a topic for discussion. It was my suggestion and the Times complied.
Secondly, I did not write the Times Staff post. It was their writing.
Thirdly, all I wanted was as many peoples' opinions as possible in expressing their concerns about having the GOP convention here in Tampa. Either people agree or disagree in general. That is my only objective and if anyone is taking offense, then I apologize to all.
Perhaps, you Mr. Ellery write a new post on how this topic should be presented and discussed. I will gladly respond. As anyone can well determine, I am by no means a professional writer or know the 50-cent words but at least I try.
And don't go off on me Mr. Ellery about feeling sorry for myself or trying to gain sympathy or seeking an apology because honestly, I could care less if people don't get involved in issues that deserve attention but am always astonished when they bitch. So go blast someone else for a while and forget about the GOP convention post of which was purely intended for general questions, responses and reasons.

Mr. Jack - Taking Credit for Times Staff post?

Mr. Jack, Sir - Re Times Staff post on GOP Convention.
First, again, We are responding to a post by Times Staff which, to me, seemed inadequate re information/data provided.

Second, you are again trying to take credit, but who else cares? Times Staff gave you no written credit. I responded to them before your drive to take credit began. And they did not present it as you allege - Agree in general, Disagree, Other - merely a headcount/vote.

Your post today, which you sent twice to maximize credit for Mr. Jack, has your me/mine roughly four times. On each. You or any reader can see this and specifically your final sentence - which has you reading the minds of Times Staff, speaking for them, whatever.

You say, "Thirdly, all I wanted was....Either people agree or disagree in general." What you want, what you want, what you want, Mr. Jack. You feel the need to tell us, "I am by no means a professional writer" - but the relevance??

From your prior posts you had sounded like a reasonable person with constructive interests. But now... Are you not unduly ego-involved (i.e., a 63 cent word), "I could care less...." and you are "always astonished when they bitch." Nice guy! "go blast someone else"???

"And don't go off on me Mr. Ellery about feeling sorry for myself or trying to gain sympathy or seeking an apology...". Don't these words, and others, speak for themselves??

Last, have you no concern Mr. Jack that it may seem arrogant that you you suggest others write a new post when they criticize Times Staff - and you take it personally? Why didn't you - yourself - post exactly and fully what you meant/want in the first place? Must all of us obey when you feel possessive or threatened re a Times Staff post?

Do you believe that you understand the word Teamwork, Mr. Jack? After you "outed yourself" re your self-credited possession of this Times Staff post I intended to move it forward per your direction. But then you started throwing divisive words. And when you talk about bitchiness, are you taking credit for that also?

Clockwork Orange/GOP

In the movie...Clockwork Orange...Alex (main character) is very violent and has committed very violent acts. When he is arrested...they try this sort of aversion therapy to help him see the errors of his behaviour. They show him videos of various violent acts and play music (in which he loves) to films in which he used to love...and it is supposed to make him have empathy for those whom he victimized. They play Beethovan.
Alex pleads for them to stop playing his favorite piece of music - Beethoven ("It's a sin..using Ludwig van like that"), since Beethoven created only beautiful music: "He did no harm to anyone. Beethoven just wrote music...." Dr. Brodsky responds to the accidental contact of the music with the treatment: "(To Dr. Branom) It can't be helped. Here's the punishment element perhaps. The Governor ought to be pleased...I'm sorry, Alex, this is for your own good. You'll have to bear with us for a while." Dr. Brodsky wants the treatment to proceed and Alex must see it through to the end - as he ironically chose: "You must take your chance, boy. The choice has been all yours."
At the breaking point, Alex admits and confesses that he is being cured of his anti-social tendencies:

My suggestion was a bit different...you play music that they HATE while reading a book by the author (Ann Coulter) and perhaps they will associate Ann Coulter with something that they think vile and disgusting (the anti-bush music by the Dixie chicks). Thus...in turn...they may begin to associate Coulter's ideas (if one can call them that) with an element that they have always found distasteful...music by the Dixie chicks. Perhaps they will reform...

but I doubt it...

Anyway...just a thought...

GOP convention

Jack...i think that we should supply them all (when they are stranded at the stadiums) with Ann Coulter's book...but all the while...they will have to listen to the Dixie Chicks piping over the speakers...kinda like Clockwork Orange. Have you read the Ann Coutler forum? Crazy.

GOP convention

Sorry Alexis, am somewhat familiar with "Clockwork Orange" but been a very long time. All I remember is that it was pretty violent. I have no idea what Ann Coulter's book is all about but if on the same page as Clockwork Orange, they would immediately pass a bill demanding armed guards protecting them 24/7. How about we just vote them out?

GOP convention in Tampa

Well...then again...maybe the GOP convention -in Tampa- at the height of hurricane season would be a good thing...provided that the only people in the region that stick around are the Republicans...who knows...it could result in a mass thinning of the herd of incompetent losers.

Aw...am I being too harsh...just kidding...sort of...

but see...after the fact they will say "we should have spent more money on mass transit to transport the folks out of the region...but since we did not...the cluster f*&^ of Republicans were all stranded at the Raymond James stadium...waiting for the waters of Tampa Bay to subside..."it was like lord of the rings all over again"

LOL

GOP convention

Don't forget Alexis, we just might have a home football game scheduled at Raymond James. Better have plenty of school buses ready to transport them to the Trop! By the way love cluster f*&^!!!!!!!!

GOP convention

Well...Jack...I live in NYC...so we had the convention the last time...and I really don't want it here...as most New Yorkers...but I think monies could be better spent in the Tampa Bay area than on a Republican convention...but what do I know. I mean...money is spent on stadiums and paying sport's figures...and anything and everything that really doesn't help society as a whole. If the money made would be used to help the citizens of the Tampa Bay area...well then by all means...but we all know that "ain't" happening.

I realize that my other post was a bit "off topic" but I thought that it was a good place to express myself...lol...

Thanks Alexis

You made your points very clear about expressing yourself and about why the GOP Convention should not cost us one cent! Take care!

Could Even the Republicans Be This Stupd?

A national political convention in Tampa Bay at the height of the hurricane season? I can't believe even the Republicans could be this stupid. Does anyone remember Katrina?

GOP Convention Fred

Good point Fred......but remember it is these thousands of premadonnas that will be evacuated first with emphasis on their safety. The thousands of little people and the many thousands of protesters expected will have to fend for themselves. Also remember that if a hurricane is eminent, there won't be a convention here....and the millions wasted on its prepardness paid by the taxpayers will just simply be wasted like throwing needed revenue out the window and watching it blow in the wind. But of course we not question this as we have no problems here in Florida such as medical, educational or insurance issues.

O'Reilly blames the New york times?????what the hell?

Bill O'Reilly is having a meltdown and blaming the New York Times because Bush started a war with Islamofascists that has resulted in the brutal beheadings of US soldiers and the establishment of a new, US sanctioned Islamofascist government, and he's utterly impotent to do anything that will restore US credibilty and spare the US from humiliation.

All Bill O' could do is scream that "We gotta do something" and tried to place the blame on the New York Times for ignorant arrogant Bush wasting $400 billion and 2600 lives in an attempt to force Islamofascists to be our friends. That's the consequence of placing idiots in charge who consider as a point of pride the fact that they never understood or were interested in geopolitics and history.

O's guests suggested the US declare martial law in Iraq (LOL) and "get the Iraqis" to defend themselves (LOL). They echoed O' in his charge that these things are not being done because of the New York Times and Democrats (LOL - Sorry...Democrats don't control any branch of government).

1) Martial law is beyond Osama bin Laden's wildest recruiting dreams, second only to the US occupation of Iraq

2) Iraqis don't care about "defending themselves" and democracy - 90% of them are Islamofascists of one extreme or another. The other word for "insurgent" is "Iraqi."

3) O' and his guests wanted to say we should raze the entire region but they know that is never going to happen, not least of all because Bush is a coward and all he hopes for now is to drag the war and get thousands more kids killed until such time he can slink out of office (as the worst president in history) and leave it to the next administration to clean his mess up.

4) A serious "war on terra" would have begun with the carpet bombing of Saudi Arabia but, again, Bush is a coward and an idiot and his only concern was finding what he ignorantly thought was an easy target that would enable him to prance around in a flight suit halloween costume under a "Mission Accomplished" banner.

GOP Convention Alexis

I take it you are against the GOP Convention taking place in Tampa!